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on this episode of skeptic Oh Alex talks

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with Princeton neuroscientist dr.

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Michael Graziano about his book

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consciousness and the social brain named

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one who's published anything in the near

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death experience literature the auto

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body experience literature I've

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interviewed tons you can look on the

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website none of them have any knowledge

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yeah but the problem is that literature

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is that yeah I'm sure if you go to

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people I'm sure if you go to astrologers

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that you would get a unanimous account

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of how astrology is valid Michael you're

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saying Bruce Grayson at the University

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of Virginia is studying astrology Jan

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Holden at the University of North Texas

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if when I interview Stuart Hameroff at

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university Arizona he's well-versed in

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the near death experience literature

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it's published in peer-reviewed journals

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it's not it's not astrology he feels a

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need to address it I google your name

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and near-death experience there's

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nothing and then I mention it to you and

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you bring out this astrology thing I

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mean that's that's insulting on on your

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part to not know of this research

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welcome to skeptic Oh where we explore

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controversial science with leading

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researchers thinkers and their critics

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I'm your host Alex Icarus and this week

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as you just heard I'm joined by

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Princeton University neuroscientist dr.

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Michael Graziano this is one of those

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interviews that I think is best left

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without a lot of introduction so let's

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get right to the dialogue today we

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welcome Michael Graziano to skeptic Oh

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dr. Graziano is a neuroscientist at

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Princeton University with a long list of

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academic publications and many important

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scientific journals he's also published

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popular books on the brain like God soul

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mind brain and his latest which will

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talk about consciousness and the social

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brain

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he's also somewhat of a Renaissance man

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having published several noteworthy

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novels and some rather amazing chamber

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music that you can check out on his

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website as well

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dr. Graziano is a great pleasure to have

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you on skeptic oh thanks for joining me

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thank you it's a pleasure to be here so

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doctor Graziano you have a new book that

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came out last year titled consciousness

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in the social brain quite provocative a

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new theory on consciousness tell us a

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little bit about the book and this new

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theory of yours sure well the book

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really lays out this this theory and

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it's an entirely rationalist theory it's

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in this way in it diverges from a lot of

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other theories of consciousness that are

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out there I would say that almost all

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past theories even the ones that

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scientists are putting forward that

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neuroscientists are putting forward but

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somewhere along the line deal in magic a

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lot of those people would like to admit

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to that I'm sure but in the end the

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question that's asked is typically how

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does a brain produce a non-physical

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magic and inner magical experience and

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that's a very difficult question

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the answer and what we're doing is

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really addressing the question in an

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entirely different way we think that

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well we know from neuroscience that the

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the brain is really an information

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processing device and when an

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information processing device

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introspects that is to say when it

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accesses internal data and on that basis

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concludes and reports that it has a

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magical property inside of it really the

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first question you would ask as a

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scientist is probably not how did it

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produce actual magic really the first

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question you might want to ask is how

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did it produce that self description and

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and what's the use well is there some

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adaptive advantage to describing itself

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that way or what are the circuits that

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compute that information or how did it

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evolve how did that kind of self

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description evolve over evolutionary

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time so these are the kinds of questions

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we're trying to get at they're very much

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in the domain of information processing

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they're objectively study Abul and and

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we think we've made quite a lot of

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interesting progress in that direction

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tell us summarize for us some of the

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progress you think you've made and why

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this theory offers a new and better

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vantage point to ask some of these

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questions well one of the things that I

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think people run into in science or in

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any attempt to understand ourselves or

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even the world around us the brain

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constructs models of things it's one of

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the things brains do they construct

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informational descriptions or models of

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things and in fact we understand the

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world around us and in us solely through

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those models we don't really have direct

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access to the world around us and and

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the brains models are notoriously

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inaccurate and there's many many

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examples of that probably the most

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famous example is the color white we see

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white light as

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your brightness without any color

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because the visual system in the brain

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constructs that kind of a simplified

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model and we know that's physically

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wrong white light is a mixture of all

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colors we don't see it that way because

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our internal model describes it in a

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kind of quick and dirty simplified way

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as pure brightness with no color now

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that's just one example but pretty much

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every model of the world external or

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internal that the brain constructs is

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sketchy cartoonish a little bit faulty

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and that means our intuitions are kind

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of at the mercy of those models so when

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we start introspecting and asking

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ourselves how you know how do I explain

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my internal experiences that that gets

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very tricky introspectively because

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we're relying on these informational

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models that are likely to be incorrect

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so what we're trying to do is take a

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much more objective or outside view of

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the process so what we think is going on

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in a nutshell so I talked about one of

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the things brains do they make models of

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things another talent brains have you

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might say is paying attention to things

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and by attention I mean something very

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specific and it's a difficult word

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because it has so many different

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meanings colloquial meanings and so on

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but I mean something very specific from

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a neuroscientists point of view

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attention is there's so many signals

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coming in at the same time a brain can't

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process them all and it selects some for

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deeper processing so now we have these

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two kinds of processes going on in the

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brain one the brain constructs models of

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things that are useful to keep track of

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and number two the brain focuses its

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resources on some signals and you might

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ask what happens inevitably when the

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brain combines those two talents

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what happens if the brain builds one of

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these simplified models to describe its

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own process of paying attention to say

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right and we think this is what

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awareness is to be aware of something

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first a brain pays attention to it and

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second the brain builds its own kind of

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sketchy you might say almost cartoonish

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model of what it means for it to pay

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attention to that thing and then that

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brain is in a position has the

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information to say to report I am aware

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of that thing and so that you know in in

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a nutshell that's the theory I've often

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said it's a very easy theory to explain

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it's much harder to explain why it's a

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good theory because there's such a range

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of material out there in the literature

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that links up to it sure sure

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I like poker easy to learn hard to

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master huh so I want to jump back for a

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minute though to this idea of the

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assumption of magic which understandably

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riles up a lot of people and I think the

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pushback that a lot of people would give

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and probably have given Michael is that

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aren't you just kind of jumping past the

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really hard stuff I mean here's the deal

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there is this thing called consciousness

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so you can say you're assuming it's a

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magic you're assuming it's not but we

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still have to deal with it so aren't we

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just jumping past the existence of

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consciousness and if you want to go

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scientific I'd say great no magic let's

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start with the first step okay dr.

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Graziano tell us what's necessary and

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sufficient to create consciousness that

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would be like a first logic rationalist

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kind of thing what's necessary and

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sufficient to create human consciousness

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mm-hmm well you know one way to put it

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and I've often used this example and it

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kind of nicely encapsulate sauer

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approach and it is totally different

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certainly totally different from the

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perspective that you outlines but I

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think a lot of people take so here's an

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example I had a friend he was a

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psychologist and he told me about a

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patient of his and this patient had a

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delusion but he thought he had a

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squirrel in his head and you know that's

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a little odd but people have

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our delusions it's not that unusual

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anyway he had he was certain of it and

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you could not convince him otherwise he

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was fixed on this delusion he knew it to

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be true

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now you could tell him that's illogical

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and he would say yeah that's okay but

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there are things in the universe that

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transcend logic uh you could not argue

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them out of it so there are kind of two

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directions you could take and in trying

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to explain this phenomenon and one would

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be to ask okay how does his brain

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produce a squirrel how did the neurons

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secrete the squirrel now that would be a

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very unproductive approach and another

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approach would be to say well how does

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his brain construct that self

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description and how does it arrive at

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such certainty that the description is

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correct and how does the brain not know

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that it's a self description now those

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things you can get at from an objective

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point of view you can answer those

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questions and in effect what I think you

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can replace the word squirrel with the

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word awareness and I think the whole

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thing is exactly encapsulated I think

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almost all approaches to consciousness

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take the first direction how does a

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brain produce a squirrel it doesn't I

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guess I'd roll back to the first

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assumption which is embedded in that

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which is that you know a

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well-functioning brain creates

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consciousness or even before that you

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know evolution creates brain brain

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creates consciousness and I'd say right

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let's let's start there because you are

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assuming that you're saying that that is

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one thing that's necessary to create

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consciousness is a well-functioning

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brain and then I'd say you know forget

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thinking I think you're missing though

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evolution creates brain I am NOT I do

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not think brain creates consciousness

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I think brains create information and

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the information informs us of something

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that's actually not physically correct

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and as a result we arrive at this

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conclusion that we have consciousness

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and we're captive to that brains only

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know the information available to them

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00:12:29,960 --> 00:12:26,280
so we're captive to the information

278
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generated by our brains generated within

279
00:12:34,370 --> 00:12:32,070
their models we're captive to that so if

280
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a brain has a model that tell

281
00:12:39,680 --> 00:12:37,980
it uh you you're I don't know you're an

282
00:12:41,210 --> 00:12:39,690
elephant or you have a squirrel in your

283
00:12:42,980 --> 00:12:41,220
head that brain is captive to that

284
00:12:46,310 --> 00:12:42,990
information it can't escape that and

285
00:12:49,520 --> 00:12:46,320
likewise if brains have information in

286
00:12:51,500 --> 00:12:49,530
them that says you have this inner

287
00:12:53,780 --> 00:12:51,510
experience then for captive to that

288
00:12:55,940 --> 00:12:53,790
information I don't think we need to

289
00:12:59,210 --> 00:12:55,950
explain how brains produce the inner

290
00:13:01,690 --> 00:12:59,220
experience the thing to be explained as

291
00:13:05,480 --> 00:13:01,700
how and for what adaptive advantage

292
00:13:07,940 --> 00:13:05,490
brains construct the information that

293
00:13:09,290 --> 00:13:07,950
they have an inner experience but don't

294
00:13:12,230 --> 00:13:09,300
we kind of get into a matter of

295
00:13:15,430 --> 00:13:12,240
semantics there I mean you are assuming

296
00:13:19,010 --> 00:13:15,440
that a brain a well-functioning brain is

297
00:13:20,510 --> 00:13:19,020
necessary to produce everything else in

298
00:13:22,040 --> 00:13:20,520
that chain you say the models that

299
00:13:24,170 --> 00:13:22,050
produce the information that produced

300
00:13:25,820 --> 00:13:24,180
the consciousness you are starting with

301
00:13:28,220 --> 00:13:25,830
a well functioning brain so that is a

302
00:13:33,260 --> 00:13:28,230
necessary part of the equation for you

303
00:13:35,990 --> 00:13:33,270
right yes but I would still up I do not

304
00:13:37,850 --> 00:13:36,000
buy the word produce attached to the

305
00:13:40,090 --> 00:13:37,860
word consciousness I don't think brains

306
00:13:42,230 --> 00:13:40,100
produce consciousness any more than that

307
00:13:44,480 --> 00:13:42,240
delusional man's brain produced a

308
00:13:46,070 --> 00:13:44,490
squirrel again that's kind of semantics

309
00:13:48,650 --> 00:13:46,080
right so you're saying brains produced

310
00:13:51,260 --> 00:13:48,660
models brains process information and

311
00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:51,270
then yeah that you know creates as well

312
00:13:56,570 --> 00:13:54,450
again that's kind of a semantic kind of

313
00:13:58,490 --> 00:13:56,580
little game there that we're playing in

314
00:14:00,500 --> 00:13:58,500
terms of at the end we have this

315
00:14:02,600 --> 00:14:00,510
experience that we all call

316
00:14:04,550 --> 00:14:02,610
consciousness so I'm just go back to the

317
00:14:06,110 --> 00:14:04,560
first thing here let me let me throw

318
00:14:08,510 --> 00:14:06,120
something out that kind of throws a

319
00:14:10,730 --> 00:14:08,520
wrench into this Jeffery Schwartz MD

320
00:14:13,190 --> 00:14:10,740
research psychiatrist UCLA School of

321
00:14:15,460 --> 00:14:13,200
Medicine a few years ago he writes a

322
00:14:19,370 --> 00:14:15,470
book titled you are not your brain

323
00:14:21,860 --> 00:14:19,380
here's this experiment it's amazingly

324
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:21,870
straightforward but extremely important

325
00:14:27,020 --> 00:14:24,360
he gets a group of these people they

326
00:14:28,430 --> 00:14:27,030
have OCD the classical you know have to

327
00:14:30,440 --> 00:14:28,440
knock three times four they enter the

328
00:14:31,460 --> 00:14:30,450
door all that kind of stuff so he's

329
00:14:34,430 --> 00:14:31,470
trying to help these people he's trying

330
00:14:36,290 --> 00:14:34,440
to treat these people so he says ok take

331
00:14:39,470 --> 00:14:36,300
that awareness that we're talking about

332
00:14:42,320 --> 00:14:39,480
take that awareness and do this focus it

333
00:14:45,530 --> 00:14:42,330
this way gives him some meditation

334
00:14:48,050 --> 00:14:45,540
techniques right and he does an fMRI of

335
00:14:50,780 --> 00:14:48,060
their brain before

336
00:14:52,940 --> 00:14:50,790
and he does it after and I have to say

337
00:14:55,340 --> 00:14:52,950
this this research has been repeated in

338
00:14:56,060 --> 00:14:55,350
various ways for a number of years all

339
00:14:57,680 --> 00:14:56,070
over the place

340
00:15:01,280 --> 00:14:57,690
but he's the first guy to really hone in

341
00:15:04,850 --> 00:15:01,290
and say okay look after this after this

342
00:15:07,460 --> 00:15:04,860
attention thing awareness thing the

343
00:15:10,430 --> 00:15:07,470
brain is a different brain which at the

344
00:15:13,370 --> 00:15:10,440
very least it throws a huge monkey

345
00:15:15,950 --> 00:15:13,380
wrench in your theory in that now we

346
00:15:17,300 --> 00:15:15,960
have to ask what brain are we talking

347
00:15:20,030 --> 00:15:17,310
about are we talking about the brain

348
00:15:22,820 --> 00:15:20,040
before the thought or after the thought

349
00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:22,830
and then if we keep rolling that chicken

350
00:15:28,610 --> 00:15:25,410
and the egg thing back we say well if

351
00:15:31,010 --> 00:15:28,620
thoughts shape the physical structure of

352
00:15:32,510 --> 00:15:31,020
the brain and the physical structure of

353
00:15:34,160 --> 00:15:32,520
the brain is this building block for

354
00:15:36,350 --> 00:15:34,170
this whole thing however you want to

355
00:15:38,750 --> 00:15:36,360
call the consciousness thing then we

356
00:15:40,550 --> 00:15:38,760
have a a big chicken and egg problem and

357
00:15:43,840 --> 00:15:40,560
we keep rolling it back and we say well

358
00:15:47,570 --> 00:15:43,850
what came first the thought or the brain

359
00:15:50,300 --> 00:15:47,580
yep sorry don't see how that throws

360
00:15:52,880 --> 00:15:50,310
monkey wrenches into the approach we're

361
00:15:56,120 --> 00:15:52,890
taking but it's a very interesting point

362
00:15:58,670 --> 00:15:56,130
and certainly thinking changes the brain

363
00:16:01,640 --> 00:15:58,680
and the brain functioning changes the

364
00:16:03,560 --> 00:16:01,650
brain that is certainly true and it's

365
00:16:05,720 --> 00:16:03,570
very it's well known in fact you can do

366
00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:05,730
something like practice up a skill and

367
00:16:11,810 --> 00:16:10,050
your brain Maps change accordingly you

368
00:16:14,780 --> 00:16:11,820
can have a thought and it changes the

369
00:16:16,790 --> 00:16:14,790
activity patterns and the connectivity

370
00:16:18,950 --> 00:16:16,800
in your brain this is certainly true so

371
00:16:21,650 --> 00:16:18,960
what comes first what comes first the

372
00:16:24,200 --> 00:16:21,660
thought or the brain I'm not 100% sure

373
00:16:27,260 --> 00:16:24,210
what you mean by that he would say that

374
00:16:29,330 --> 00:16:27,270
a thought a thought changes the brain

375
00:16:31,940 --> 00:16:29,340
changes the physical structure of the

376
00:16:34,660 --> 00:16:31,950
brain and we keep rolling that back in

377
00:16:37,130 --> 00:16:34,670
the brains prior to hours prior to hours

378
00:16:39,140 --> 00:16:37,140
there was a thought and that changed the

379
00:16:41,390 --> 00:16:39,150
brain how do we ever get back to the

380
00:16:43,580 --> 00:16:41,400
starting point of the brain before the

381
00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:43,590
thought right I think what you're doing

382
00:16:47,420 --> 00:16:45,090
is making the assumption that the

383
00:16:49,550 --> 00:16:47,430
thought is a separate kind of

384
00:16:51,920 --> 00:16:49,560
metaphysical thing that when it happens

385
00:16:55,340 --> 00:16:51,930
causes a change in the brain as opposed

386
00:16:57,530 --> 00:16:55,350
to the there's a computer and it in

387
00:16:59,330 --> 00:16:57,540
processes information and in the act of

388
00:17:01,830 --> 00:16:59,340
processing information that changes its

389
00:17:05,550 --> 00:17:01,840
own States well again that's what the

390
00:17:07,290 --> 00:17:05,560
research from dr. schwartz indicates and

391
00:17:09,630 --> 00:17:07,300
that's why he wrote the box you are not

392
00:17:11,700 --> 00:17:09,640
your brain but right so that that

393
00:17:13,620 --> 00:17:11,710
research show anything other than when

394
00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:13,630
the brain functions it changes and we

395
00:17:18,990 --> 00:17:15,250
all knew that for the last hundred years

396
00:17:21,590 --> 00:17:19,000
so I'm sure that uh that's an

397
00:17:25,890 --> 00:17:21,600
interesting study but I don't see how it

398
00:17:28,620 --> 00:17:25,900
addresses the duality question okay well

399
00:17:30,390 --> 00:17:28,630
it does get to this attention issue but

400
00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:30,400
you know what let's let's kind of move

401
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:32,530
on beyond that because one thing I

402
00:17:37,500 --> 00:17:34,210
wanted to mention is that in addition to

403
00:17:40,740 --> 00:17:37,510
your academic work at Princeton you also

404
00:17:43,050 --> 00:17:40,750
publish on popular sites which i think

405
00:17:45,510 --> 00:17:43,060
is great I mean you're an academic and

406
00:17:47,130 --> 00:17:45,520
you're you know highly skilled in this

407
00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:47,140
research but you're right stuff that

408
00:17:52,220 --> 00:17:49,810
everyone can read I read a post of yours

409
00:17:55,250 --> 00:17:52,230
on the Huffington Post titled

410
00:17:57,870 --> 00:17:55,260
consciousness and the unashamed

411
00:18:03,890 --> 00:17:57,880
rationalist go ahead tells us that makes

412
00:18:15,020 --> 00:18:10,020
in this study of consciousness there is

413
00:18:18,780 --> 00:18:15,030
a certain squeamishness toward the most

414
00:18:22,490 --> 00:18:18,790
rationalist scientific approach there is

415
00:18:25,650 --> 00:18:22,500
I sense a desire to maintain mystery

416
00:18:26,940 --> 00:18:25,660
maybe partly because if the mystery is

417
00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:26,950
cleared up the field of consciousness

418
00:18:32,760 --> 00:18:29,770
studies goes away and that's you know a

419
00:18:35,700 --> 00:18:32,770
line of work that many people rely on or

420
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:35,710
maybe there are personal reasons or

421
00:18:40,830 --> 00:18:37,450
emotional reasons or religious reasons

422
00:18:45,870 --> 00:18:40,840
why people love this notion of an

423
00:18:49,830 --> 00:18:45,880
unexplainable mystery and my approach to

424
00:18:52,470 --> 00:18:49,840
this is entirely mechanistic entirely

425
00:18:56,430 --> 00:18:52,480
rationalist and the question I'm asking

426
00:18:58,710 --> 00:18:56,440
in a sense is how far can we go in an

427
00:19:03,030 --> 00:18:58,720
entirely rationalist approach how far

428
00:19:05,250 --> 00:19:03,040
can we get and and be able to explain as

429
00:19:08,430 --> 00:19:05,260
much as possible and I think that kind

430
00:19:10,170 --> 00:19:08,440
of is the mission of science you know

431
00:19:12,060 --> 00:19:10,180
not not to explain everything because I

432
00:19:15,120 --> 00:19:12,070
don't think that it will ever happen but

433
00:19:15,810 --> 00:19:15,130
to see how much can be explained and in

434
00:19:17,370 --> 00:19:15,820
particular

435
00:19:19,410 --> 00:19:17,380
see how much can be explained by

436
00:19:23,610 --> 00:19:19,420
entirely rational and mechanistic means

437
00:19:25,830 --> 00:19:23,620
and testable means that to give to give

438
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:25,840
a shot at that and that's kind of the

439
00:19:31,950 --> 00:19:29,610
the mission of science that's how I

440
00:19:33,390 --> 00:19:31,960
approach this question of consciousness

441
00:19:36,750 --> 00:19:33,400
so that's kind of what I mean by the

442
00:19:39,000 --> 00:19:36,760
unashamed rationalist good and I'm glad

443
00:19:42,090 --> 00:19:39,010
you brought up the issue of spirituality

444
00:19:44,340 --> 00:19:42,100
and religion because you touch on it a

445
00:19:46,080 --> 00:19:44,350
couple of times and I'm not really

446
00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:46,090
exactly sure where you're coming from on

447
00:19:51,420 --> 00:19:48,730
page 58 of your book consciousness and

448
00:19:54,180 --> 00:19:51,430
the social brain you write the question

449
00:19:56,610 --> 00:19:54,190
of where the soul is located becomes

450
00:19:58,020 --> 00:19:56,620
complicated with out-of-body experiences

451
00:20:00,660 --> 00:19:58,030
I want to break that down in a couple of

452
00:20:03,330 --> 00:20:00,670
ways first of all tell us about a little

453
00:20:05,520 --> 00:20:03,340
bit more about this soul thing and why

454
00:20:08,130 --> 00:20:05,530
you think these questions of religion

455
00:20:11,610 --> 00:20:08,140
and spirituality intersect with

456
00:20:17,810 --> 00:20:11,620
consciousness it one do they at all and

457
00:20:21,900 --> 00:20:17,820
why do they mm-hm well oh one point I

458
00:20:23,370 --> 00:20:21,910
think that scientists do themselves and

459
00:20:25,890 --> 00:20:23,380
the rest of us a disservice when they

460
00:20:28,260 --> 00:20:25,900
shy away from religion a lot of

461
00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:28,270
scientists just treat it as something

462
00:20:35,250 --> 00:20:32,770
kind of icky and don't want to address

463
00:20:36,510 --> 00:20:35,260
it and decide if the word religions

464
00:20:39,020 --> 00:20:36,520
somewhere in there then they'll just

465
00:20:42,420 --> 00:20:39,030
leave it alone the problem is that

466
00:20:44,340 --> 00:20:42,430
religion is a huge part of humanity it's

467
00:20:47,490 --> 00:20:44,350
a huge part of who people are it has a

468
00:20:50,340 --> 00:20:47,500
giant impact on us culturally it's a

469
00:20:53,400 --> 00:20:50,350
creative driving force an emotional and

470
00:20:56,220 --> 00:20:53,410
social driving force and as an actual

471
00:20:59,310 --> 00:20:56,230
real-life phenomenon human religion that

472
00:21:01,560 --> 00:20:59,320
deserves a it deserves scientific study

473
00:21:02,670 --> 00:21:01,570
so that's one point I would make it

474
00:21:03,900 --> 00:21:02,680
somebody but wait a minute

475
00:21:05,760 --> 00:21:03,910
how does that intersect with

476
00:21:08,480 --> 00:21:05,770
consciousness I'm with you and we've

477
00:21:11,700 --> 00:21:08,490
done we've done dozens of shows on on

478
00:21:13,590 --> 00:21:11,710
Christianity and cultish thinking and

479
00:21:14,760 --> 00:21:13,600
how that happens and all the rest of

480
00:21:18,510 --> 00:21:14,770
that but I don't see the intersection

481
00:21:21,120 --> 00:21:18,520
between religion and consciousness and

482
00:21:23,280 --> 00:21:21,130
in fact I think it really muddies the

483
00:21:25,830 --> 00:21:23,290
water when we kind of bring in this

484
00:21:28,470 --> 00:21:25,840
phony science versus religion debate

485
00:21:29,139 --> 00:21:28,480
that doesn't really add anything to the

486
00:21:34,659 --> 00:21:29,149
scientific

487
00:21:35,979 --> 00:21:34,669
questions well one of the one of the key

488
00:21:39,879 --> 00:21:35,989
points in this theory that we're

489
00:21:42,039 --> 00:21:39,889
building is that you can ask what do we

490
00:21:44,049 --> 00:21:42,049
use awareness for and of course most of

491
00:21:46,719 --> 00:21:44,059
us think of awareness consciousness is a

492
00:21:49,989 --> 00:21:46,729
private phenomenon but we use it

493
00:21:51,940 --> 00:21:49,999
socially we attribute awareness to other

494
00:21:54,190 --> 00:21:51,950
people it's one of the ways we use this

495
00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:54,200
whole concept of awareness so I talked

496
00:21:57,940 --> 00:21:56,450
to you over the phone and I get a strong

497
00:21:59,829 --> 00:21:57,950
sense that you're a being with an

498
00:22:02,200 --> 00:21:59,839
awareness and a consciousness and this

499
00:22:04,539 --> 00:22:02,210
is very critical for any kind of social

500
00:22:06,579 --> 00:22:04,549
interaction in fact without it we

501
00:22:10,989 --> 00:22:06,589
wouldn't be a successful species because

502
00:22:15,190 --> 00:22:10,999
we rely on this intense social ability

503
00:22:17,799 --> 00:22:15,200
the ability to intuit what's going on in

504
00:22:22,079 --> 00:22:17,809
someone else's mind on the basis of very

505
00:22:26,079 --> 00:22:22,089
fleeting cues almost instantaneously and

506
00:22:30,789 --> 00:22:26,089
what I think is happening and is that

507
00:22:32,409 --> 00:22:30,799
it's this same ability this same ability

508
00:22:34,359 --> 00:22:32,419
not only to attribute awareness to

509
00:22:35,799 --> 00:22:34,369
ourselves and to the people around us

510
00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:35,809
but think of all the other ways we

511
00:22:41,139 --> 00:22:38,450
attribute awareness well to our pets of

512
00:22:43,899 --> 00:22:41,149
course or children attribute awareness

513
00:22:46,499 --> 00:22:43,909
to their stuffed animals we get mad at

514
00:22:50,739 --> 00:22:46,509
the coffee machine when it doesn't work

515
00:22:52,690 --> 00:22:50,749
we attribute in animistic societies

516
00:22:56,440 --> 00:22:52,700
attribute awareness and consciousness to

517
00:22:58,419 --> 00:22:56,450
trees and rivers and I would say that

518
00:23:01,450 --> 00:22:58,429
it's the exactly the same process that

519
00:23:06,549 --> 00:23:01,460
leads people to attribute awareness to

520
00:23:09,419 --> 00:23:06,559
empty spaces and around them and to the

521
00:23:12,339 --> 00:23:09,429
events around them and from that flows

522
00:23:15,969 --> 00:23:12,349
some of the kind of core basics of

523
00:23:19,440 --> 00:23:15,979
religion these beliefs in spirits that

524
00:23:22,329 --> 00:23:19,450
are separate from bodies that explain

525
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:22,339
for example the behavior of the world

526
00:23:27,669 --> 00:23:25,690
those the storms of the rains or

527
00:23:29,709 --> 00:23:27,679
everything in the universe that's

528
00:23:33,369 --> 00:23:29,719
otherwise inexplicable that is

529
00:23:35,889 --> 00:23:33,379
attributed to a deity so there's a

530
00:23:37,690 --> 00:23:35,899
thread running through religion that at

531
00:23:41,669 --> 00:23:37,700
its root has to do with our

532
00:23:45,430 --> 00:23:41,679
extraordinary social capability of

533
00:23:47,769 --> 00:23:45,440
building models of minds and attributing

534
00:23:48,279 --> 00:23:47,779
them to the things and the spaces around

535
00:23:50,799 --> 00:23:48,289
us

536
00:23:52,869 --> 00:23:50,809
and that that's the link yeah I don't

537
00:23:55,419 --> 00:23:52,879
know Michael that's ten years I mean you

538
00:23:58,539 --> 00:23:55,429
run into the same problem that we

539
00:24:00,849 --> 00:23:58,549
criticize Christian apologists for I

540
00:24:03,519 --> 00:24:00,859
mean you're beginning with the end and

541
00:24:05,349 --> 00:24:03,529
working backwards saying okay I know all

542
00:24:07,389 --> 00:24:05,359
about this experience that people are

543
00:24:09,369 --> 00:24:07,399
having so let me go ahead and explain it

544
00:24:12,700 --> 00:24:09,379
from my rationalist perspective I think

545
00:24:15,820 --> 00:24:12,710
it just complicates things and creates

546
00:24:17,619 --> 00:24:15,830
this big mess I'd go back to this quote

547
00:24:19,839 --> 00:24:17,629
of yours that I read I mean let's focus

548
00:24:22,180 --> 00:24:19,849
in on the data a little bit because you

549
00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:22,190
said the question of where the soul is

550
00:24:27,759 --> 00:24:25,369
located becomes complicated without of

551
00:24:30,339 --> 00:24:27,769
body experiences aha now here's an

552
00:24:33,039 --> 00:24:30,349
experience we can really hone in on we

553
00:24:34,869 --> 00:24:33,049
can really look at the data and see how

554
00:24:36,940 --> 00:24:34,879
it fits these different theories and

555
00:24:39,039 --> 00:24:36,950
then you go on to say that these

556
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:39,049
out-of-body experiences are illusion and

557
00:24:43,690 --> 00:24:40,970
you make this passing reference to Olaf

558
00:24:45,940 --> 00:24:43,700
blanks research where he stimulated this

559
00:24:48,070 --> 00:24:45,950
part of people's brain and they had some

560
00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:48,080
aspects of an auto body experience which

561
00:24:53,409 --> 00:24:50,090
I have to tell you I've talked to a lot

562
00:24:55,930 --> 00:24:53,419
of very credible well published academic

563
00:24:58,810 --> 00:24:55,940
researchers who have researched OBEs and

564
00:25:01,239 --> 00:24:58,820
have researched near-death experience

565
00:25:04,629 --> 00:25:01,249
science and none of them think very

566
00:25:08,129 --> 00:25:04,639
highly of blocks research in terms of

567
00:25:11,320 --> 00:25:08,139
coming anywhere close to really

568
00:25:13,899 --> 00:25:11,330
replicating these kind of experiences

569
00:25:16,239 --> 00:25:13,909
but moreover the big thing about it is

570
00:25:18,009 --> 00:25:16,249
you know it's it's I want to hear what

571
00:25:19,930 --> 00:25:18,019
you mean when you say it complicates

572
00:25:22,089 --> 00:25:19,940
complicated without a body experience

573
00:25:24,310 --> 00:25:22,099
because I think heck yes it's

574
00:25:27,009 --> 00:25:24,320
complicated it's complicated because

575
00:25:29,139 --> 00:25:27,019
here we have these people who in the

576
00:25:31,379 --> 00:25:29,149
case of near-death experience let's look

577
00:25:34,060 --> 00:25:31,389
at they have a non functioning brain

578
00:25:36,430 --> 00:25:34,070
which we both agreed was kind of the

579
00:25:39,039 --> 00:25:36,440
starting point for this whole chain of

580
00:25:40,539 --> 00:25:39,049
events that lead to consciousness I

581
00:25:42,460 --> 00:25:40,549
won't say create consciousness because I

582
00:25:43,779 --> 00:25:42,470
know you don't like that but lead to the

583
00:25:46,269 --> 00:25:43,789
creating of models and processing

584
00:25:48,519 --> 00:25:46,279
information here we have these people

585
00:25:52,690 --> 00:25:48,529
they no longer have a functioning brain

586
00:25:54,899 --> 00:25:52,700
and yet they do have this experience of

587
00:25:57,029 --> 00:25:54,909
processing information I

588
00:25:58,700 --> 00:25:57,039
interviewed dr. Jeff long I don't know

589
00:26:01,460 --> 00:25:58,710
if you know these guys know this guy but

590
00:26:05,180 --> 00:26:01,470
comprehensive study of near you know him

591
00:26:07,049 --> 00:26:05,190
nope sorry a comprehensive survey of

592
00:26:09,659 --> 00:26:07,059
2,000 of these people have had these

593
00:26:12,089 --> 00:26:09,669
near-death experience detailed records

594
00:26:13,859 --> 00:26:12,099
of their recollections during their

595
00:26:17,190 --> 00:26:13,869
out-of-body experience and their

596
00:26:19,529 --> 00:26:17,200
accurate interviewed dr. penny Sartori

597
00:26:21,269 --> 00:26:19,539
also Jan Holden at University of North

598
00:26:23,430 --> 00:26:21,279
Texas both did similar research

599
00:26:25,489 --> 00:26:23,440
independently where they took these

600
00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:25,499
people they had a cardiac arrest and

601
00:26:30,239 --> 00:26:28,330
they had an out-of-body experience and

602
00:26:32,509 --> 00:26:30,249
they go to him again it's pretty simple

603
00:26:34,710 --> 00:26:32,519
say what do you remember about your

604
00:26:37,799 --> 00:26:34,720
resuscitation again we have the non

605
00:26:40,339 --> 00:26:37,809
functioning brain and we have the people

606
00:26:43,529 --> 00:26:40,349
who have the auto body experience have

607
00:26:46,369 --> 00:26:43,539
much more statistically significant

608
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:46,379
accurate details of the resuscitation

609
00:26:50,190 --> 00:26:49,090
than the other group that didn't so we

610
00:26:52,589 --> 00:26:50,200
have all this evidence that keeps

611
00:26:55,169 --> 00:26:52,599
pointing to that yeah it's really

612
00:26:57,869 --> 00:26:55,179
complicated with out-of-body experiences

613
00:26:59,489 --> 00:26:57,879
because unlike that little experiment

614
00:27:01,619 --> 00:26:59,499
that Blanc did that's kind of hokey

615
00:27:03,570 --> 00:27:01,629
stimulating the back we have a lot of

616
00:27:06,089 --> 00:27:03,580
evidence that these people with these

617
00:27:09,810 --> 00:27:06,099
non functioning brains are still having

618
00:27:12,180 --> 00:27:09,820
these rather dramatic experiences right

619
00:27:14,099 --> 00:27:12,190
well I mean III I guess I could say

620
00:27:16,349 --> 00:27:14,109
equally I've talked to an awful lot of

621
00:27:18,060 --> 00:27:16,359
experts in neuroscience we're quite

622
00:27:20,099 --> 00:27:18,070
impressed with the Blancas experiment

623
00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:20,109
and who do consider it to be a classic

624
00:27:24,659 --> 00:27:22,210
out-of-body experience named one who

625
00:27:26,310 --> 00:27:24,669
studied who's published anything in the

626
00:27:28,409 --> 00:27:26,320
near death experience literature the

627
00:27:30,180 --> 00:27:28,419
auto body experience literature every

628
00:27:31,979 --> 00:27:30,190
I've interviewed a bunch of him I've

629
00:27:34,529 --> 00:27:31,989
interviewed tons you can look on the

630
00:27:37,379 --> 00:27:34,539
website none of them have right now hey

631
00:27:40,739 --> 00:27:37,389
I'll tell you this I do I do a google

632
00:27:43,589 --> 00:27:40,749
search of the problem is that literature

633
00:27:45,989 --> 00:27:43,599
is that yeah I'm sure if you go to

634
00:27:48,479 --> 00:27:45,999
people I'm sure if you go to astrologers

635
00:27:51,330 --> 00:27:48,489
that you would get a unanimous account

636
00:27:53,039 --> 00:27:51,340
of how astrology is valid I think maybe

637
00:27:55,379 --> 00:27:53,049
a little bit of this is going on here

638
00:27:57,509 --> 00:27:55,389
with respect Michael you're saying Bruce

639
00:28:00,810 --> 00:27:57,519
Grayson at the University of Virginia is

640
00:28:03,210 --> 00:28:00,820
studying astrology Jan Holden at

641
00:28:05,700 --> 00:28:03,220
University of North Texas you know hey

642
00:28:08,790 --> 00:28:05,710
even when I when I interview Stuart

643
00:28:10,590 --> 00:28:08,800
Hameroff at university Arizona he's got

644
00:28:12,870 --> 00:28:10,600
he's well-versed in the near death

645
00:28:15,210 --> 00:28:12,880
experience literature it's published in

646
00:28:17,850 --> 00:28:15,220
peer-reviewed journals it's not it's not

647
00:28:21,240 --> 00:28:17,860
astrology he's well-versed in it he

648
00:28:23,010 --> 00:28:21,250
feels a need to address it I google your

649
00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:23,020
name and near-death experience there's

650
00:28:27,360 --> 00:28:25,330
nothing and I mention it to you and you

651
00:28:30,060 --> 00:28:27,370
bring out this astrology thing I mean

652
00:28:33,510 --> 00:28:30,070
that's that's insulting on your part to

653
00:28:35,880 --> 00:28:33,520
not know of this research that could be

654
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:35,890
I mean I I'm aware there's a there's an

655
00:28:42,360 --> 00:28:39,210
NDE world out there I would say that

656
00:28:45,150 --> 00:28:42,370
it's very very difficult and I'm very

657
00:28:47,160 --> 00:28:45,160
skeptical of the claim that the brain is

658
00:28:48,900 --> 00:28:47,170
actually non functioning it's almost

659
00:28:51,690 --> 00:28:48,910
impossible to demonstrate that there's

660
00:28:53,580 --> 00:28:51,700
no no functioning no activity in the

661
00:28:55,410 --> 00:28:53,590
brain it's almost impossible I just

662
00:28:58,980 --> 00:28:55,420
don't believe that there are the

663
00:29:00,480 --> 00:28:58,990
scanning methods available to arrive at

664
00:29:02,250 --> 00:29:00,490
that kind of conclusion of course these

665
00:29:04,140 --> 00:29:02,260
brains are functioning if these people

666
00:29:06,530 --> 00:29:04,150
are having experiences their brains are

667
00:29:08,730 --> 00:29:06,540
in some manner functioning my

668
00:29:11,430 --> 00:29:08,740
neuroscientist I mean I think you can't

669
00:29:13,590 --> 00:29:11,440
be more well-versed anyone this is basic

670
00:29:16,950 --> 00:29:13,600
I spoke with one of the world's leading

671
00:29:19,490 --> 00:29:16,960
experts on EEG and I've also spoken with

672
00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:19,500
other ones and I'll tell you point-blank

673
00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:22,930
anyone who's had a cardiac arrest within

674
00:29:29,250 --> 00:29:27,130
15 seconds has we can assume through all

675
00:29:31,410 --> 00:29:29,260
the human studies we've done and all the

676
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:31,420
animal studies we've done that they have

677
00:29:35,910 --> 00:29:33,730
a flatline non functioning brain so

678
00:29:38,460 --> 00:29:35,920
people can point to some people point to

679
00:29:40,770 --> 00:29:38,470
sometimes to some deep brain activity

680
00:29:42,300 --> 00:29:40,780
that might be going on and a study comes

681
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:42,310
out on rats with this deep brain

682
00:29:48,060 --> 00:29:45,010
activity but none of that matches all

683
00:29:50,460 --> 00:29:48,070
the other research we have of what a

684
00:29:51,990 --> 00:29:50,470
brain looks like when it's normally

685
00:29:53,910 --> 00:29:52,000
functioning and producing this

686
00:29:55,770 --> 00:29:53,920
experience that we all talk about so

687
00:29:57,990 --> 00:29:55,780
what you just said is it just doesn't

688
00:30:00,330 --> 00:29:58,000
match with the data it says to just

689
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:00,340
assume that oh I know that people have

690
00:30:04,230 --> 00:30:02,650
cardiac arrest normally we don't think

691
00:30:06,090 --> 00:30:04,240
of their brain is functioning but you're

692
00:30:08,070 --> 00:30:06,100
skeptical so you have to assume in these

693
00:30:10,170 --> 00:30:08,080
situations that the burdens on you to

694
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:10,180
kind of say why we should go against

695
00:30:15,060 --> 00:30:12,850
everything we already know yeah I think

696
00:30:17,700 --> 00:30:15,070
the burdens on the NDE people to show us

697
00:30:19,820 --> 00:30:17,710
that there's really NDEs and I and I

698
00:30:21,960 --> 00:30:19,830
think pretty much most of my

699
00:30:25,590 --> 00:30:21,970
neuroscience colleagues that

700
00:30:27,840 --> 00:30:25,600
conclude that no there's there are these

701
00:30:28,470 --> 00:30:27,850
experiences they are related to brain

702
00:30:31,169 --> 00:30:28,480
function

703
00:30:32,580 --> 00:30:31,179
there's no mind or experience

704
00:30:35,129 --> 00:30:32,590
independent of the functioning of the

705
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:35,139
brain okay but again you know one of

706
00:30:40,169 --> 00:30:37,570
them ahead I'm sorry I was going to say

707
00:30:42,269 --> 00:30:40,179
one of them one of the cornerstone

708
00:30:46,230 --> 00:30:42,279
observations from which all neuroscience

709
00:30:48,749 --> 00:30:46,240
emerged is that damage the brain and

710
00:30:52,169 --> 00:30:48,759
you've damaged bits and pieces of the

711
00:30:58,019 --> 00:30:52,179
mind and that observation

712
00:30:59,909 --> 00:30:58,029
you know from Hippocrates on is like I

713
00:31:02,070 --> 00:30:59,919
said a cornerstone it really shows the

714
00:31:03,810 --> 00:31:02,080
deep relationship between the

715
00:31:08,220 --> 00:31:03,820
functioning the brain and what we call

716
00:31:09,629 --> 00:31:08,230
the mind right but if I can persist just

717
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:09,639
a little bit because you keep saying

718
00:31:16,529 --> 00:31:13,090
there's this army of neuroscientists who

719
00:31:18,749 --> 00:31:16,539
all agree with you that this near-death

720
00:31:20,460 --> 00:31:18,759
experience science isn't important

721
00:31:23,220 --> 00:31:20,470
because there's just they're making some

722
00:31:26,009 --> 00:31:23,230
fatal flaw and I challenge you to tell

723
00:31:29,249 --> 00:31:26,019
me one who has any kind of familiarity

724
00:31:31,590 --> 00:31:29,259
with that research who's published

725
00:31:33,899 --> 00:31:31,600
anything about that research you

726
00:31:35,399 --> 00:31:33,909
obviously haven't so I don't think I

727
00:31:38,159 --> 00:31:35,409
think you're admitting that you're not

728
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:38,169
familiar with the research so who is one

729
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:40,090
of your colleagues who who we could talk

730
00:31:44,639 --> 00:31:42,490
to who really has challenged that

731
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:44,649
research in a more direct way and I

732
00:31:49,680 --> 00:31:46,570
would just like dr. PIM van Lommel

733
00:31:54,330 --> 00:31:49,690
somebody we've talked to publishes this

734
00:31:56,129 --> 00:31:54,340
long 10 year study of a cardiologist 20

735
00:31:57,960 --> 00:31:56,139
year cardiologist in the Netherlands

736
00:32:00,600 --> 00:31:57,970
publishes in The Lancet right one of the

737
00:32:03,139 --> 00:32:00,610
top medical journals in the country tell

738
00:32:05,700 --> 00:32:03,149
me who has a substantive

739
00:32:07,499 --> 00:32:05,710
counter-argument to the claims that he

740
00:32:09,210 --> 00:32:07,509
makes in that paper right that's an

741
00:32:11,999 --> 00:32:09,220
academic paper that we should take

742
00:32:13,529 --> 00:32:12,009
seriously you're not aware of it you

743
00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:13,539
should be aware of it but you're not

744
00:32:16,919 --> 00:32:15,370
tell me one of your colleagues you're

745
00:32:19,470 --> 00:32:16,929
talking about who is aware of it whose

746
00:32:21,749 --> 00:32:19,480
pas something about it I I don't know

747
00:32:24,240 --> 00:32:21,759
any serious or reputable scientists who

748
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:24,250
have bothered to do experiments to

749
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:28,690
refute psychic phenomena we're talking

750
00:32:32,639 --> 00:32:30,490
about The Lancet eing into the future

751
00:32:33,899 --> 00:32:32,649
we're talking about The Lancet we're

752
00:32:35,820 --> 00:32:33,909
talking about someone who is a

753
00:32:38,460 --> 00:32:35,830
cardiologist for 20 years

754
00:32:41,760 --> 00:32:38,470
and you're countering with psychic

755
00:32:43,890 --> 00:32:41,770
phenomena exactly that's what it is it's

756
00:32:45,450 --> 00:32:43,900
a psychic phenomena but you've never

757
00:32:46,980 --> 00:32:45,460
you've never examined any of the

758
00:32:50,130 --> 00:32:46,990
literature you've never read any of the

759
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:50,140
literature I've read a certain amount of

760
00:32:54,540 --> 00:32:52,570
it what what have you read again tell me

761
00:32:57,750 --> 00:32:54,550
one of the large right there there's a

762
00:33:00,450 --> 00:32:57,760
large literature on a astrology that I

763
00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:00,460
had decided to read one piece of

764
00:33:05,100 --> 00:33:01,810
near-death experience

765
00:33:07,470 --> 00:33:05,110
you cannot cite one piece of near-death

766
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:07,480
experience science literature I chose

767
00:33:11,370 --> 00:33:09,010
you Bruce Grayson at the University

768
00:33:14,010 --> 00:33:11,380
Arizona I said it 3 or 4 people who are

769
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:14,020
well respected academics Peter fennec

770
00:33:18,600 --> 00:33:17,050
Sam Varney at Cornell and and you're

771
00:33:20,250 --> 00:33:18,610
gonna and you want to talk about psych

772
00:33:22,260 --> 00:33:20,260
so tell me one that you've read Michael

773
00:33:24,060 --> 00:33:22,270
one that you've read me what you're

774
00:33:27,930 --> 00:33:24,070
doing is appealing to Authority I'm

775
00:33:31,290 --> 00:33:27,940
sorry it doesn't interest Princeton a

776
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:31,300
Princeton neuroscientist you are the

777
00:33:39,720 --> 00:33:35,530
authority well in that case I say that I

778
00:33:41,340 --> 00:33:39,730
am very very skeptical of I believe that

779
00:33:43,140 --> 00:33:41,350
there are such things as near-death

780
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:43,150
experiences why do you believe there are

781
00:33:47,250 --> 00:33:44,650
why do you believe that

782
00:33:48,810 --> 00:33:47,260
oh because people report them but I do

783
00:33:51,300 --> 00:33:48,820
you know they report them you haven't

784
00:33:55,170 --> 00:33:51,310
read the literature I believe that they

785
00:34:00,990 --> 00:33:55,180
are caused by activity in the brain and

786
00:34:03,450 --> 00:34:01,000
you base that on what well why you read

787
00:34:06,210 --> 00:34:03,460
any of the literature Michael which is

788
00:34:08,820 --> 00:34:06,220
fine look I don't want to pound on you

789
00:34:11,550 --> 00:34:08,830
anymore this your research is really

790
00:34:14,430 --> 00:34:11,560
important tell us where you're going

791
00:34:17,730 --> 00:34:14,440
with this important theory this

792
00:34:19,290 --> 00:34:17,740
attention schema theory at Princeton

793
00:34:20,630 --> 00:34:19,300
yeah where does this take you in the

794
00:34:23,580 --> 00:34:20,640
future

795
00:34:25,350 --> 00:34:23,590
well we can we continue to put it to

796
00:34:27,930 --> 00:34:25,360
experimental test every good theory

797
00:34:30,930 --> 00:34:27,940
should be falsifiable we think this one

798
00:34:34,020 --> 00:34:30,940
is as well and it is susceptible to

799
00:34:39,740 --> 00:34:34,030
experimental tests and what we've done

800
00:34:45,270 --> 00:34:39,750
having laid out the theory is began to

801
00:34:47,190 --> 00:34:45,280
test it in specific ways with behavioral

802
00:34:49,379 --> 00:34:47,200
experiments on attention and awareness

803
00:34:52,549 --> 00:34:49,389
with imaging study

804
00:34:58,829 --> 00:34:52,559
putting people in scanners to look at Oh

805
00:35:00,870 --> 00:34:58,839
brain areas and and isolate the network

806
00:35:04,490 --> 00:35:00,880
or parts of the network that seem to be

807
00:35:07,829 --> 00:35:04,500
involved in these computations and with

808
00:35:12,539 --> 00:35:07,839
disruption experiments such as what's

809
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:12,549
called transcranial magnetic stimulation

810
00:35:19,279 --> 00:35:14,890
it's a method of temporarily disrupting

811
00:35:21,870 --> 00:35:19,289
neuronal activity in select spots and

812
00:35:25,980 --> 00:35:21,880
measuring the effects of that when we

813
00:35:28,799 --> 00:35:25,990
target it to specific cortical areas so

814
00:35:31,170 --> 00:35:28,809
we have it we have a very large full

815
00:35:33,539 --> 00:35:31,180
plate you might say of experiments to do

816
00:35:36,539 --> 00:35:33,549
to address this theory find out what its

817
00:35:42,059 --> 00:35:36,549
validity is or is not and that's kind of

818
00:35:44,579 --> 00:35:42,069
the strength of Sciences - as I said

819
00:35:45,990 --> 00:35:44,589
outline falsifiable theories and then

820
00:35:47,549 --> 00:35:46,000
put them to the test

821
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:47,559
right and that's kind of where we are

822
00:35:53,400 --> 00:35:50,170
right and on your your website at

823
00:35:54,990 --> 00:35:53,410
Princeton DTU which anyone can find very

824
00:35:56,759 --> 00:35:55,000
easily by googling your name you have

825
00:35:58,829 --> 00:35:56,769
quite a nice do you keep people

826
00:36:02,960 --> 00:35:58,839
regularly updated on things that are

827
00:36:05,999 --> 00:36:02,970
going on in your lab well mostly I

828
00:36:09,299 --> 00:36:06,009
update the publication list and so and I

829
00:36:10,759 --> 00:36:09,309
have links to the publications so anyone

830
00:36:13,529 --> 00:36:10,769
can go look at what the latest

831
00:36:17,700 --> 00:36:13,539
publications are on this topic one just

832
00:36:21,509 --> 00:36:17,710
came out in PNAS month or she would go

833
00:36:24,329 --> 00:36:21,519
on this topic of consciousness good and

834
00:36:26,130 --> 00:36:24,339
as I mentioned you are you're very out

835
00:36:28,609 --> 00:36:26,140
there public and write a lot of things

836
00:36:30,950 --> 00:36:28,619
that anyone can pick up and read and

837
00:36:33,230 --> 00:36:30,960
again this latest book of yours

838
00:36:35,460 --> 00:36:33,240
consciousness and the social brain

839
00:36:37,710 --> 00:36:35,470
obviously is on Amazon and all those

840
00:36:39,779 --> 00:36:37,720
other places people can find it it's

841
00:36:41,759 --> 00:36:39,789
really been great having you on I know I

842
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:41,769
had to push you a little bit on some of

843
00:36:45,779 --> 00:36:43,690
these hot-button issues that we like to

844
00:36:47,430 --> 00:36:45,789
talk about but I do appreciate your

845
00:36:50,220 --> 00:36:47,440
openness and willing to dialogue about

846
00:36:52,890 --> 00:36:50,230
this so best luck with all your work and

847
00:36:55,499 --> 00:36:52,900
thanks again for joining me good thank

848
00:37:01,960 --> 00:36:55,509
you I always enjoy a lively conversation

849
00:37:03,849 --> 00:37:01,970
and I we did offer up that dinner yes

850
00:37:06,280 --> 00:37:03,859
thanks again to dr. Graziano for joining

851
00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:06,290
me today on skeptic Oh as a follow-up to

852
00:37:10,810 --> 00:37:08,330
this interview I'm very happy to say

853
00:37:14,260 --> 00:37:10,820
that dr. Jeffery Schwartz from UCLA

854
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:14,270
Medical School has agreed to join me to

855
00:37:19,359 --> 00:37:17,090
talk about one of the small points that

856
00:37:21,849 --> 00:37:19,369
we covered in this interview

857
00:37:24,490 --> 00:37:21,859
you know there's much much I could say

858
00:37:27,339 --> 00:37:24,500
about this interview but probably not a

859
00:37:30,580 --> 00:37:27,349
lot that I haven't said already many

860
00:37:33,730 --> 00:37:30,590
times in other shows the one question I

861
00:37:36,970 --> 00:37:33,740
T up from this interview has to do with

862
00:37:40,630 --> 00:37:36,980
dr. Graziano's reliance on this idea of

863
00:37:43,990 --> 00:37:40,640
the emergent property of consciousness

864
00:37:45,790 --> 00:37:44,000
and just what exactly you make of that

865
00:37:47,230 --> 00:37:45,800
so let me know your thoughts on that of

866
00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:47,240
course the place to do it is it The

867
00:37:54,460 --> 00:37:50,090
Skeptical website you can find it at ske

868
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:54,470
P tik o comm from there you can bounce

869
00:37:58,839 --> 00:37:57,170
on over to the forum or leave a comment

870
00:38:00,790 --> 00:37:58,849
right there in the comment section of

871
00:38:03,400 --> 00:38:00,800
the page you can also drop me an e-mail

872
00:38:05,530 --> 00:38:03,410
or connect with me on facebook it's

873
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:05,540
always great to hear from folks and and

874
00:38:11,950 --> 00:38:08,930
hear how their own personal journey with

875
00:38:13,599 --> 00:38:11,960
some of this information is going so I

876
00:38:16,690 --> 00:38:13,609
have a number of interesting shows

877
00:38:18,700 --> 00:38:16,700
coming up not sure what exactly one I'm

878
00:38:20,859 --> 00:38:18,710
going to bring to you next but have an

879
00:38:22,780 --> 00:38:20,869
interesting show on healing and I think

880
00:38:25,089 --> 00:38:22,790
I've been sitting on that for a while

881
00:38:28,450 --> 00:38:25,099
and I think that one might be ready to

882
00:38:30,970 --> 00:38:28,460
come out or as promised we might hear

883
00:38:32,440 --> 00:38:30,980
from dr. Jeffery Schwartz so I guess

884
00:38:35,230 --> 00:38:32,450
I'll have to keep you guessing a little

885
00:38:36,970 --> 00:38:35,240
bit until next episode but I do hope

886
00:38:40,390 --> 00:38:36,980
you'll stick around for all of that and

887
00:38:40,720 --> 00:38:40,400
until next time take care and bye for